Note: Psychotherapist and personal friend Dr. Joseph Dillard interviewed me about this dream aboard the boat Indigo off the coast of Bimini in the Bahama Islands in mid-August 2010.
How do you get heard by those who value doctrine over love or justice?
How do you do drama without getting caught in the Drama Triangle? (Avoiding playing the roles of victim, rescuer or persecutor)
In this interview Eugene chose to interview a [dream] character that normally would supply useful objectivity: a building. But because it was a church building, it was soon found to be exclusivist and beyond reproach. Therefore, another character needed to be interviewed, but which one? It is interesting that while the church building was itself biased and close-minded, it was able and willing to recommend a character that was transformative for this dreamer: a large (not fat), aging former-hippie woman with a long blond braid.
What are fundamental life issues that you are dealing with now in your life?
1. Getting the Deep Democracy Open Forum project going in Los Alamos
2. Completing the reconciliation process with my family
3. Getting the RPK experiment up to date
Tell me a dream you remember. It can be an old one, a repetitive dream, a nightmare, or one that you’re sure you understand.
3 August 2010, 0330. I’m in the Los Alamos Ward of the Mormon Church with Dr. Ian Alexander, its bishop [like a parish priest]. We’re not in his office [which is where I have met him twice before on a one-on-one in real life], but out in the building. Lots of people moving around. One is a very large woman with a long, blond braid hanging down at the back of her head. I say to her, “I think you were a hippie in earlier years” and everyone laughs. I have a message for Bishop Ian: The two excommunications I have had from the Mormon Church were examples of “unrighteous dominion” and therefore the Lord does not recognize them. I am using church legal language to attempt to arrange a meeting on the matter with the local high council. My message is not only to see if the Church hierarchy will acknowledge this unrighteous dominion behavior, but also to extend that acknowledgement to set an example for the larger community of Los Alamos, the site of the origin of the Atomic Bomb. If this can be done, Los Alamos might be able to transform its awesome and corrupting legacy and set an example for the world in terms of transformation. I cannot tell if the bishop understands my message because he continues being interrupted by others as we talk. He looks at a man with a vacuum cleaner who is cleaning up after a church celebration and nods approval at the cleaning up.Why do you think that you had this dream?
I have a project I am working on in Los Alamos called “The Los Alamos Deep Democracy Open Forum.” It uses physicist/psychologist Arnold Mindell’s well-tested model of deep democracy open forums and refers to historian Garry Wills’ recent book Bomb Power, which is a new rigorous history of the Manhattan Project. Bomb Power describes the on-going corrupting consequences of that urgent, world-changing project. The dream seems to talk about where I am and why I am in Los Alamos. If that’s a grand delusion, it’s grand indeed. But it makes sense to me and gives me an enormous amount of energy and motivation.
If it were playing at a theater, what name would be on the marquee?
“The Transformation of Los Alamos”
These are the characters in the dream, beside yourself…
Los Alamos Mormon Ward House, Bishop Ian Alexander, Hippie Woman, Vacuum Man, Rug, Debris on Rug, People milling about, Los Alamos community, the Bomb.
If one character had something especially important to tell you, what would it be?
|Los Alamos Mormon Ward House|
(JD: Now remember how as a child you liked to pretend you were a teacher or a doctor? It’s easy and fun for you to imagine that you are this or that character in your dream and answer some questions I ask, saying the first thing that comes to your mind. If you wait too long to answer, that’s not the character answering - that’s YOU trying to figure out the right thing to say!)
Ward House, would you please tell me about yourself and what you are doing?
I have been built with the finest materials by inspired people to exact dimensions. I am very secure and well financed. In me is the Truth.
What do you like most about yourself? What are your strengths?
Security! Solidity, clarity, absoluteness, confidence.
What do you dislike most about yourself? Do you have weaknesses? What are they?
There is absolutely nothing I don’t like about myself! I have no weaknesses!
Ward House, you are in Eugene’s life experience, correct? He created you, right?
Yes and yes.
What aspect of Eugene do you represent or most closely personify?
I am his sense of very rigid clarity!
Ward House, it doesn’t sound like you are going to be able to give us much of a different perspective. Do you have a recommendation of a dream character we can interview that might be helpful?
The hippie woman!
Hippie Woman, would you please tell me about yourself and what you are doing?
I am so pleased that you ask! No one asks me much of anything because I am so big! In this place no one wants to think about wild people. I have a very wild past that I love; they don’t like to hear about it because it scares them. I love these people, and that’s why I am here. I understand their fears and I’ve been waiting for this interview.
What do you like most about yourself? What are your strengths?
I love people! I accept people for who and how they are, without condemnation, with compassion! That includes their fears!
What do you dislike most about yourself? Do you have weaknesses? What are they?
There was a time when I didn’t like myself. At this time I am so pleased with myself! I am grateful for being here! That I am this large! I am grateful that I see what I couldn’t see before! I see the fear and the rigidness, the arrogance, the blindness, and it’s OK. But that’s where the problem is.
Hippie Woman, you are in Eugene’s life experience, correct? He created you, right?
Hippie Woman, what aspect of Eugene do you represent or most closely personify?
His love for his people, his family, his friends, his love for those who hate him and fear him. He is feeling a deep desire that they know of his love and caring, but they don’t know of this and don’t know that they don’t know that they don’t know. He is expressing his gratitude for my being in his life among them. I have taken such a strong place.
Hippie Woman, if you could be anywhere you wanted to be and take any form you desired, would you change? If so, how?
No! I’m where I need to be! I am so moved that you have asked and that there are those that care.
Do you feel that Eugene is hearing you?
Yes! I am so happy to be truly heard!
(Continue, answering as the transformed object, if it chose to change.)
Hippie Woman, how would you score yourself 0-10, in confidence, compassion, wisdom, acceptance, peace of mind, and witnessing? Why?
Confidence: 10. I know who I am, warts and all!
Compassion: 10. I have been through a lot. I have learned to be compassionate. It’s not been easy.
Wisdom: 10. I can’t imagine it being less than ten. When I think of wisdom, I think of meaning, I think of seeing the connectedness of all creatures and images. I think of the meaning in trees, the ocean, the sky....It makes me smile! They are what they are. They all have a place. I celebrate that place!
Acceptance: 10. We are who we are! I love it!
Inner Peace: 10. I can’t think of anything less!
Witnessing: 10. I SEE (thank God!) a grandeur of being, a grandeur of beauty, of experience, a grandeur even of blindness and rigidity. It all has its place in life!
How would Eugene’s life be different if he naturally scored like you do in all six of these qualities all the time?
He wouldn’t need to react to anyone! He reacts a lot, now. He reacts a lot to the Ward House, to the leadership that inhabits and produced that building, that claims that building. He’s still in reaction to a lot of that and demanding. If he were like me he wouldn’t need to be that demanding.
How would that change his life?
He would probably dis-identify with that part of himself that is standing on top of the wall crying “repentance.” He would be joking, loving, accepting. He would just be there, wherever he was with understanding, without demands. Patient!
If you could live Eugene’s life for him, how would you live it differently?
With more patience, compassion, without demands, with humor!
If you could live Eugene’s waking life for him today, would you handle his three life issues differently? If so, how?
a. You have given him some ideas about how to bring about the Los Alamos Deep Democracy Open Forum.
b. Follow through with his remote psychokinesis experiment.
c. Bring into completion his reconciliation process with his children.
What three life issues would you focus on if you were in charge of Eugene’s life?
The open forum is the one I am here for, to give him a different perspective. He is challenging, but not demanding of this new Mormon leadership to bring him in front of the high council and present to them an idea that seems to be timely, that this place of Los Alamos has an opportunity to take advantage of. This gives him a new approach that he hasn't considered before.
[This brings to mind an event that occurred years ago on May 21, 1972, in the very Mormon church building where Eugene was first excommunicated (in absentia 7 years earlier). He had just come out of the “forest” where he had been for seven years and looked like a hippy. A week or two earlier he had received a telephone call in Portland from the man (Robert Perine) who had been the Laguna Ward bishop who had taken charges out against him all those years ago, whom he had not seen since. RP had learned where Eugene was from his family and had called to ask forgiveness for not understanding or listening to him back then. He confessed to Eugene that exactly three years from the date that he took out those charges against Eugene over seven years earlier, he himself was excommunicated for precisely the charges he made. He asked forgiveness and they immediately reconciled. Even though RP never returned to the Mormon Church, in his will he stipulated that Eugene be asked to sing at his funeral a song he had composed for Eugene’s voice, called “Hope”. His widow found this request in the will and flew Eugene to Newport Beach just to sing this song.]
Shortly after RP’s call, Eugene had driven down from Portland to sing at his 16-year-old daughter’s Mormon Ward in Newport Beach at her request, since she had been given the ward assignment to arrange the music for the meeting—a ward conference. [This meant that some members of the original high council that had excommunicated him would be there.] Eugene chose to sing a Negro spiritual, dressed in purple hippy clothes with long hair. After his singing the bishop was so moved that he could not speak for a long time. Shortly after Eugene left the building he began to be nagged by a weird idea about Joseph Smith. Strange as it seemed, he looked up the birth and death dates of Joseph Smith and added the age of Smith at death to Eugene’s birth date only to be surprised to discover that the date was that very day! (May 21, 1972). This shook him greatly and he began to wonder if the Holy Spirit was telling him he should return to the Mormon Church.]
In what life situations would it be most beneficial for Eugene to imagine that he is you and act as you would?
In virtually all life situations. That’s the personality he needs to carry with him in all life situations!
Hippie Woman, do you do drama? If not, why not?
Yes, but with pleasure, without anxiety, without worry. It’s fun, it brings color, it brings humor. It brings life! I can’t imagine life without drama! It would be silly!
Do you play the victim?
I can play it, but I’m not it!
Do you play the rescuer?
I can do that with great fake self-righteousness!
Do you play the persecutor!
I can do it very well! There’s a Hitler in me - a small potatoes!
What is your secret for staying out of drama?
Detachment! I can easily detach!
Why do you think that you are in Eugene’s life?
He needs me! He has forgotten me! I am there for him! He now sees me! That’s why I am so big. He has avoided seeing me before!
How is Eugene most likely to ignore what you are saying to him?
If he were a fool he would ignore me. He doesn’t want to be a fool. Actually, he IS a fool! He has been very proud of it before. Maybe he’s not so proud of it now!
What would you recommend that he do about that?
Remember the braid! (This is in contrast to a large long haired blond woman in Eugene's dream of 21 September 1965 about celebrating “the beginning of the recrystallization of the church”.)
I think Eugene had this dream because:
To get him focused at a new reference point. A new view of what he can bring to the table in his conversations with the Mormon community. It means a humanity to him that he hasn’t been so conscious of before, that he hasn’t allowed himself to be aware of, that he has been too proud to be aware of ! That he hasn’t felt was necessary before! He has been so stupid before!
I think this dream event happened or (some character) was in the dream because...
The man with the vacuum cleaner is cleaning up trivial stuff that’s what the Bishop is valuing now. He’s seeing trivial stuff getting taken care of. He doesn’t see the big picture. He’s young, well-intended, a medical doctor, just beginning his practice. He’s very confident and open and aware of being inexperienced. He’s trying to do a good job, but it’s all new to him. He has no idea of what’s coming.
Eugene, what have you heard yourself say?
That my experience and view of the Mormon Church is that the institution is rigid and insecure. It is self-contained and doesn't see the need of any outside influence. But there is a presence within it in the form of a liberated and liberating female that is very much aware of what is and what isn’t, who is there in a loving way despite that institutional self-sufficiency and spiritual conceit. The large woman part of myself has been through the woods, the ravine, the wars and survived them and thrived in spite of all this and achieved a sense of peace and wisdom and centeredness. She is good humored and doesn’t preach or attack. I’m in Los Alamos for more than just by happenstance.
If this experience were a wake-up call from the most central part of who you are, what do you think it would be saying to you?
I don’t need to be anxious or sweat consequences. Feel humor, be caring, love church authorities, family, colleagues. There isn’t anything other than that to concentrate on. As Rene Gerard once said: the first fear of two fears experienced by ecclesiastical institutions is generally “the fear of defilement”; the second is “the fear of insufficient love”, i.e., not loving well enough. That’s the fear experienced by the saints of old. If one must fear, that’s the fear to embrace—not the first kind.
Joseph Dillard sent the quote below at the end this formal interview, which I like:
Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it.Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held.Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books.Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin.Believe nothing just because someone else believes it.Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.